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Carl Cameron Reports - Some U.S. investigators believe that Israel is spying in and on the U.S. and Crime/Corruption

Published: 12/12/01 Author: Carl Cameron
Posted on 12/13/01 6:18 AM Pacific by Phil V.

Carl Cameron Reports - Some U.S. investigators believe that Israel is spying in and on the U.S. and may have known things they didn't tell us before September 11

Wednesday, December 12, 2001
(second of four part series)

BRIT HUME, HOST: It has been more than 16 years since a civilian working for the Navy was charged with passing secrets to Israel. Jonathan Pollard pled guilty to conspiracy to commit espionage and is serving a life sentence. At first, Israeli leaders claimed Pollard was part of a rogue operation, but later took responsibility for his work.
Now Fox News has learned some U.S. investigators believe that there are Israelis again very much engaged in spying in and on the U.S., who may have known things they didn't tell us before September 11. Fox News correspondent Carl Cameron has details in the first of a four-part series.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CARL CAMERON, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Since September 11, more than 60 Israelis have been arrested or detained, either under the new patriot anti-terrorism law, or for immigration violations. A handful of active Israeli military were among those detained, according to investigators, who say some of the detainees also failed polygraph questions when asked about alleged surveillance activities against and in the United States.

There is no indication that the Israelis were involved in the 9-11 attacks, but investigators suspect that they Israelis may have gathered intelligence about the attacks in advance, and not shared it. A highly placed investigator said there are "tie-ins." But when asked for details, he flatly refused to describe them, saying, "evidence linking these Israelis to 9-11 is classified. I cannot tell you about evidence that has been gathered. It's classified information."

Fox News has learned that one group of Israelis, spotted in North Carolina recently, is suspected of keeping an apartment in California to spy on a group of Arabs who the United States is also investigating for links to terrorism. Numerous classified documents obtained by Fox News indicate that even prior to September 11, as many as 140 other Israelis had been detained or arrested in a secretive and sprawling investigation into suspected espionage by Israelis in the United States.

Investigators from numerous government agencies are part of a working group that's been compiling evidence since the mid '90s. These documents detail hundreds of incidents in cities and towns across the country that investigators say, "may well be an organized intelligence gathering activity."

The first part of the investigation focuses on Israelis who say they are art students from the University of Jerusalem and Bazala Academy. They repeatedly made contact with U.S. government personnel, the report says, by saying they wanted to sell cheap art or handiwork.

Documents say they, "targeted and penetrated military bases." The DEA, FBI and dozens of government facilities, and even secret offices and unlisted private homes of law enforcement and intelligence personnel. The majority of those questioned, "stated they served in military intelligence, electronic surveillance intercept and or explosive ordinance units."

Another part of the investigation has resulted in the detention and arrests of dozens of Israelis at American mall kiosks, where they've been selling toys called Puzzle Car and Zoom Copter. Investigators suspect a front.

Shortly after The New York Times and Washington Post reported the Israeli detentions last months, the carts began vanishing. Zoom Copter's Web page says, "We are aware of the situation caused by thousands of mall carts being closed at the last minute. This in no way reflects the quality of the toy or its salability. The problem lies in the operators' business policies."

Why would Israelis spy in and on the U.S.? A general accounting office investigation referred to Israel as country A and said, "According to a U.S. intelligence agency, the government of country A conducts the most aggressive espionage operations against the U.S. of any U.S. ally."

A defense intelligence report said Israel has a voracious appetite for information and said, "the Israelis are motivated by strong survival instincts which dictate every possible facet of their political and economical policies. It aggressively collects military and industrial technology and the U.S. is a high priority target."

The document concludes: "Israel possesses the resources and technical capability to achieve its collection objectives."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

A spokesman for the Israeli embassy here in Washington issued a denial saying that any suggestion that Israelis are spying in or on the U.S. is "simply not true." There are other things to consider. And in the days ahead, we'll take a look at the U.S. phone system and law enforcement's methods for wiretaps. And an investigation that both have been compromised by our friends overseas.

HUME: Carl, what about this question of advanced knowledge of what was going to happen on 9-11? How clear are investigators that some Israeli agents may have known something?

CAMERON: It's very explosive information, obviously, and there's a great deal of evidence that they say they have collected Q none of it necessarily conclusive. It's more when they put it all together. A bigger question, they say, is how could they not have know? Almost a direct quote.

HUME: Going into the fact that they were spying on some Arabs, right?

CAMERON: Correct.

HUME: All right, Carl, thanks very much.

1 posted on 12/13/01 6:18 AM Pacific by Phil V.
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To: dennisw; ObjetD'art; Nachum; Galloway; Michael2001; The Documentary Lady; jmp702; malarski...

Perhaps some of these "assets" betrayed the "Jewish Defense League"?

2 posted on 12/13/01 6:20 AM Pacific by Phil V.
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To: Phil V.

This is actually part one of the series, which has already been posted. Part two focused on a company called AMDOCS, -- FNC shold post it online
later today, i guess. . .

3 posted on 12/13/01 6:23 AM Pacific by Plummz
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To: Plummz

sorry.

perhaps you could attach part two to this one?

4 posted on 12/13/01 6:29 AM Pacific by Phil V.
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To: Phil V.

I am unsure why this is news. If Israel was NOT spying on the USA, that would be a news story. Perhaps I am being a tad cynical, but I do try to be a realist. If this story suprises or shocks you, it is time for you to wake up and smell the coffee. If you think it is untrue, perhaps you need medical assistance.

5 posted on 12/13/01 6:36 AM Pacific by Agent Smith
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To: Phil V.

If the Israelis had info and didn't share it with our CIA, they must be the only ones who didn't share the info.....just about everyone else in the world told us OBL was going to rain terror down on our heads. Now we are going to whine that if only Israel told us, we would have been able to capture OBL..........

6 posted on 12/13/01 6:43 AM Pacific by OldFriend
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To: Phil V.

Well, duh! The US has the largest population in the world. I would expect that at least a few have been recruited to work for Mossad on at least a part time basis.

It has been obvious that Israel considers anything that causes the US to get into a fight with any moslems, anywhere, any time, is very much in their own national interest. That may or may not be a mistaken notion, but that is their mindset.

7 posted on 12/13/01 6:46 AM Pacific by Stefan Stackhouse
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To: Agent Smith

Really. The same people here who would cry bloody murder that Israel is spying on us would go ballistic if we WEREN'T spying on them. And the Brits. And the French. "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer."

8 posted on 12/13/01 6:57 AM Pacific by LS
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To: Phil V.

This is part one. Post part two where it is explained that Israel did warn the US (but didn't furnish "enough" proof).

9 posted on 12/13/01 7:11 AM Pacific by Sabramerican
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To: Phil V.

Perhaps some of these "assets" betrayed the "Jewish Defense League"?

It has been widely reported that Rubin was turned in by one of his associates in the JDL.

10 posted on 12/13/01 7:33 AM Pacific by Inyokern
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To: Sabramerican

This is part one. Post part two where it is explained that Israel did warn the US (but didn't furnish "enough" proof).***

How many times has the CIA been burned by Israeli intelligence? Geesh. I can't blame the CIA for distrusting them at all.

11 posted on 12/13/01 7:35 AM Pacific by The Documentary Lady
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To: The Documentary Lady

Just write three or four more idiotic posts and you will make today's quota.

12 posted on 12/13/01 7:37 AM Pacific by Sabramerican
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To: Phil V.

And may have known things they didn't tell us before September 11...

They retracted that part last night Phil. Truth in advertising...Phil. Try it - you'll like it! (-;

13 posted on 12/13/01 7:41 AM Pacific by veronica
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To: Phil V.

Compared to some of the countrys who spy on the U.S.
Israel is only doing it for self preservation.

14 posted on 12/13/01 7:47 AM Pacific by philetus
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To: philetus

Compared to some of the countrys who spy on the U.S. Israel is only doing it for self preservation.

Yea, and the way to do it is to sell our military secrets to Chinese. Self preservation, my a**.

15 posted on 12/13/01 8:30 AM Pacific by malarski
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To: Phil V.

It's hard to tell, because the reports are rather vague, but based on what I do know, I would guess that Israel is in fact spying on suspected Arab terrorists residing in the US. But IMHO Fox wants ratings, reporting that Israel is spying on suspected Arab terrorists isn't really surprising, isn't too interesting a story, and few people will watch. But reporting that since Israel is spying on suspected Arab terrorists, they MAY have known about 9/11
and MAY not have told us, that's a news story. It's quite a leap from A to B but it will get ratings.

Funny that some people who wouldn't believe the government and media when they said that Bin Laden was 100% behind the attacks, but now that Fox News says might/maybe/possibly something bad about Israel these same people believe them 100%.

16 posted on 12/13/01 1:09 PM Pacific by Michael2001
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To: veronica

Part II link

17 posted on 12/14/01 12:14 AM Pacific by Phil V.
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To: Phil V.

the Israelis are motivated by strong survival instincts which dictate every possible facet of their political and economical policies

Unfortunately, our nation seems to lack that survival instinct, judging from the idiotic policies of agencies such as the INS.

18 posted on 12/18/01 11:42 AM Pacific by giotto
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To: Phil V.

The B-nai B-rith routinely collects intelligence for the Jewish ADL to pass onto Israeli intelligence operatives. Also the banking cartels may possibly be used to collect financial intelligence for Israel.

19 posted on 12/24/01 12:46 AM Pacific by Sage_B
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To: malarski

Carl Cameron's excellent investigation on the suppressed facts of Israeli betrayal of America's national security has now been SPIKED by the oligarchs at Fox. If you want a visceral experience of what George Orwell was warning us about in 1984 (the origial title for which (in 1948)was
1948!) go to: Carl Cameron's Spiked Story Incredibly...this is what Fox "News" (?) Network has posted on the now blank page:
"This story no longer exists."

20 posted on 12/24/01 5:03 AM Pacific by Iceberg
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To: Sage_B

If you would like to let the media elite censors at Fox News know how you feel about being told what you are allowed to hear on American televisions, you might e-mail them some pithy thoughts at:
Peter Chernin, President & CEO

Sean "Israel can do no wrong" Hannity

Bill "the only good Arab is a dead Arab" O'Reilly

Shepard "lapdog" Smith

John "all the facts that fit" Gibson

21 posted on 12/24/01 5:51 AM Pacific by Iceberg
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Carl Cameron Investigates Part 2 - Israel Is Spying In And On The U.S.?

Foreign Affairs
Source: Fox New
Posted on 12/13/01 3:47 PM Pacific by RCW2001

Carl Cameron Investigates Part 2 Thursday, December 13, 2001

This partial transcript of Special Report with Brit Hume, Dec. 12, was provided by the Federal Document Clearing House. Click here to order the complete transcript.

Part 2 of 4

BRIT HUME, HOST: Last time we reported on the approximately 60 Israelis who had been detained in connection with the Sept. 11 terrorism investigation. Carl Cameron reported that U.S. investigators suspect that some of these Israelis were spying on Arabs in this country, and may have turned up information on the planned terrorist attacks back in September that was not passed on.

Tonight, in the second of four reports on spying by Israelis in the U.S., we learn about an Israeli-based private communications company, for whom a half-dozen of those 60 detained suspects worked. American investigators fear information generated by this firm may have fallen into the wrong hands and had the effect of impeded the Sept. 11 terror inquiry. Here's Carl Cameron's second report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CARL CAMERON, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Fox News has learned that some American terrorist investigators fear certain suspects in the Sept. 11 attacks may have managed to stay ahead of them, by knowing who and when investigators are calling on the telephone. How?

By obtaining and analyzing data that's generated every time someone in the U.S. makes a call.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What city and state, please?

CAMERON: Here's how the system works. Most directory assistance calls, and virtually all call records and billing in the U.S. are done for the phone companies by Amdocs Ltd., an Israeli-based private elecommunications company.

Amdocs has contracts with the 25 biggest phone companies in America, and more worldwide. The White House and other secure government phone lines are protected, but it is virtually impossible to make a call on normal phones without generating an Amdocs record of it.

In recent years, the FBI and other government agencies have investigated Amdocs more than once. The firm has repeatedly and adamantly denied any security breaches or wrongdoing. But sources tell Fox News that in 1999, the super secret national security agency, headquartered in northern Maryland, issued what's called a Top Secret sensitive compartmentalized information report, TS/SCI, warning that records of calls in the United States
were getting into foreign hands P in Israel, in particular.

Investigators don't believe calls are being listened to, but the data about who is calling whom and when is plenty valuable in itself. An internal Amdocs memo to senior company executives suggests just how Amdocs generated call records could be used. RWidespread data mining techniques and algorithms.... combining both the properties of the customer (e.g., credit rating) and properties of the specific TbehaviorI.US Specific behavior,
such as who the customers are calling.

The Amdocs memo says the system should be used to prevent phone fraud. But U.S. counterintelligence analysts say it could also be used to spy through the phone system. Fox News has learned that the N.S.A has held numerous classified conferences to warn the F.B.I. and C.I.A. how Amdocs records could be used. At one NSA briefing, a diagram by the Argon national lab was used to show that if the phone records are not secure, major security breaches are possible.

Another briefing document said, "It has become increasingly apparent that systems and networks are vulnerable.ISuch crimes always involve unauthorized persons, or persons who exceed their authorization...citing on exploitable vulnerabilities."

Those vulnerabilities are growing, because according to another briefing, the U.S. relies too much on foreign companies like Amdocs for high-tech equipment and software. "Many factors have led to increased dependence on code developed overseas.... We buy rather than train or develop solutions."

U.S. intelligence does not believe the Israeli government is involved in a misuse of information, and Amdocs insists that its data is secure. What U.S. government officials are worried about, however, is the possibility that Amdocs data could get into the wrong hands, particularly organized crime.

And that would not be the first thing that such a thing has happened. Fox News has documents of a 1997 drug trafficking case in Los Angeles, in which telephone information, the type that Amdocs collects, was used to "completely compromise the communications of the FBI, the Secret Service, the DEO and the LAPD."

We'll have that and a lot more in the days ahead P Brit.

HUME: Carl, I want to take you back to your report last night on those 60 Israelis who were detained in the anti-terror investigation, and the suspicion that some investigators have that they may have picked up information on the 9/11 attacks ahead of time and not passed it on.

There was a report, you'll recall, that the Mossad, the Israeli intelligence agency, did indeed send representatives to the U.S. to warn, just before 9/11, that a major terrorist attack was imminent. How does that leave room for the lack of a warning?

CAMERON: I remember the report, Brit. We did it first internationally right here on your show on the 14th. What investigators are saying is that that warning from the Mossad was nonspecific and general, and they believe that it may have had something to do with the desire to protect what are called sources and methods in the intelligence community. The suspicion being, perhaps those sources and methods were taking place right here in the United States.

The question came up in select intelligence committee on Capitol Hill today. They intend to look into what we reported last night, and specifically that possibility P Brit.

HUME: So in other words, the problem wasn't lack of a warning, the problem was lack of useful details?

CAMERON: Quantity of information.

HUME: All right, Carl, thank you very much.

1 posted on 12/13/01 3:47 PM Pacific by RCW2001
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To: RCW2001

Part One Discussion Thread

2 posted on 12/13/01 3:48 PM Pacific by RCW2001
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To: RCW2001

Well I was waiting for the big info supporting yesterdays' insinuations...not here yet.

An "Israeli" company did exactly what in this instance? For Atta? Other companies have other info? or same? What about every credit card bureau, etc. that holds information? And if it was not "Israeli", would that make a difference? Is this some kind of industrial intrigue--some American company wants to take over some business?

I thought Israel would be spying on "arabs", sort of the localized Hamas types, incl. perhaps swiping information we had on them. But this fellowinsinuates they had more "details." Really? Or just saving face for last night's show? Perhaps the Israelis knew it involved "airplanes"--did they advise us? How much details do his sources know were actually given? Seems we did know. For one, check out this San Francisco Chornicle article of September 12:

HEADLINE: Willie Brown got low-key early warning about air travel

For Mayor Willie Brown, the first signs that something was amiss came late Monday when he got a call from what he
described as his airport security -- a full eight hours before yesterday's string of terrorist attacks -- advising him that Americans should be cautious about their air travel.

The mayor, who was booked to fly to New York yesterday morning from San Francisco International Airport, said the call "didn't come in any alarming fashion, which is why I'm hesitant to make an alarming statement."

In fact, at the time, he didn't pay it much mind.

"It was not an abnormal call. I'm always concerned if my flight is going to be on time, and they always alert me when I ought to be careful." [curious "keep calm" type statement] Exactly where the call came from is a bit of a mystery. The mayor would say only that it came from "my security people at the airport."

Mike McCarron, assistant deputy director at SFO, said the Federal Aviation Administration "routinely" issues security notices about possible threats.
He said two or three such notices have been received in the past couple of months, but none in recent days. [Oh, how come Willie's people knew?]

Whatever the case, Brown didn't think about it again until he was up, dressed and waiting for his ride to the airport for an 8 a.m. flight to New York,
where he was to attend a state retirement board meeting. That was when he turned on the TV, and like millions of other Americans, saw the twin
towers of the World Trade Center crumble and the Pentagon go up in smoke.

Before the mayor was even out the door, District Attorney Terence Hallinan -- the man Brown said just last week should be recalled -- was checking in
and offering help...[etc.]

Seems to me we "knew" something was up, but were doubting, stubborn, etc. Watch out for the blame game to flow.

We'll see what Mr. Cameron's next episodes have to say. For his sake I hope some American-DEBKA has not fed him.

3 posted on 12/13/01 5:16 PM Pacific by Shermy
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To: Noxxus; livius; veronica

Above is part two of Cameron's investigation on Fox.

4 posted on 12/13/01 5:37 PM Pacific by Shermy
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To: Shermy

The story seems to be shrinking daily. Heading toward much ado about nothing. Rumor and innuendo so far. Unsourced and speculative.

5 posted on 12/13/01 6:05 PM Pacific by scratchgolfer
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To: scratchgolfer

Right. Hate to say it, it almost sounds anti-semitic with the characteristic no-connection connections and "taint" by association typical of that hatred.
We'll see.

6 posted on 12/13/01 6:16 PM Pacific by Shermy
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To: RCW2001

Everyone spies on everyone and most of these spies were spying on Arabs in America. The Mossad also went to Lanley Virginia before the Sept 11
attacks to tell us they had information something was gonna happen they just didn't know what.

7 posted on 12/13/01 6:21 PM Pacific by weikel
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To: weikel

But they apparently knew a lot more than they were letting on.

8 posted on 12/14/01 8:59 AM Pacific by Justin Raimondo
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To: RCW2001

Cameron is writing a sequel for the Protocol of Zion. I have never read such a malicious , rumor and inuendo filled, and fact starved report. Brit
Humes was my hero, and now I can't look at his face for associating with the nazi Cameron.

9 posted on 12/14/01 9:10 AM Pacific by imperator2
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To: Justin Raimondo

Maybe they did maybe they didn't apparently they gave same names to the CIA because teh CIA gave some to the FBI the Bin Laden video would
suggest they didn't know what the attack would be since the hijackers themselves didn't know to the last minute.

10 posted on 12/14/01 11:34 AM Pacific by weikel
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To: imperator2

Amazing, the mental gymnastics of the Great Hassid Real-Estate scam's defenders. As a last resort: Accuse your critics of Holocaust denial.

11 posted on 12/23/01 11:17 AM Pacific by iNewt
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To: scratchgolfer

Hmm, you're easy to satisfy.

12 posted on 12/23/01 11:26 AM Pacific by iNewt
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Carl Cameron Investigates Part 3 : Comverse, CALEA, Israel and the terror investigation

Crime/Corruption
Source: Fox News: Special Report with Brit Hume
Published: Dec. 13 Author: CARL CAMERON
Posted on 12/14/01 9:22 AM Pacific by Plummz

HUME: Last time we reported on an Israeli-based company called Amdocs Ltd. that generates the computerized records and billing data for nearly
every phone call made in America. As Carl Cameron reported, U.S. investigators digging into the 9/11 terrorist attacks fear that suspects may have
been tipped off to what they were doing by information leaking out of Amdocs.

In tonight's report, we learn that the concern about phone security extends to another company, founded in Israel, that provides the technology that the
U.S. government uses for electronic eavesdropping. Here is Carl Cameron's third report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CARL CAMERON, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The company is Comverse Infosys, a subsidiary of an Israeli-run private
telecommunications firm, with offices throughout the U.S. It provides wiretapping equipment for law enforcement. Here's how wiretapping works
in the U.S.

Every time you make a call, it passes through the nation's elaborate network of switchers and routers run by the phone companies. Custom computers
and software, made by companies like Comverse, are tied into that network to intercept, record and store the wiretapped calls, and at the same time
transmit them to investigators.

The manufacturers have continuing access to the computers so they can service them and keep them free of glitches. This process was authorized by
the 1994 Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act, or CALEA. Senior government officials have now told Fox News that while
CALEA made wiretapping easier, it has led to a system that is seriously vulnerable to compromise, and may have undermined the whole wiretapping
system.

Indeed, Fox News has learned that Attorney General John Ashcroft and FBI Director Robert Mueller were both warned Oct. 18 in a hand-delivered
letter from 15 local, state and federal law enforcement officials, who complained that "law enforcement's current electronic surveillance capabilities
are less effective today than they were at the time CALEA was enacted."

Congress insists the equipment it installs is secure. But the complaint about this system is that the wiretap computer programs made by Comverse
have, in effect, a back door through which wiretaps themselves can be intercepted by unauthorized parties.

Adding to the suspicions is the fact that in Israel, Comverse works closely with the Israeli government, and under special programs, gets reimbursed
for up to 50 percent of its research and development costs by the Israeli Ministry of Industry and Trade. But investigators within the DEA, INS and
FBI have all told Fox News that to pursue or even suggest Israeli spying through Comverse is considered career suicide.

And sources say that while various F.B.I. inquiries into Comverse have been conducted over the years, they've been halted before the actual
equipment has ever been thoroughly tested for leaks. A 1999 F.C.C. document indicates several government agencies expressed deep concerns that
too many unauthorized non-law enforcement personnel can access the wiretap system. And the FBI's own nondescript office in Chantilly, Virginia
that actually oversees the CALEA wiretapping program, is among the most agitated about the threat.

But there is a bitter turf war internally at F.B.I. It is the FBI's office in Quantico, Virginia, that has jurisdiction over awarding contracts and buying
intercept equipment. And for years, they've thrown much of the business to Comverse. A handful of former U.S. law enforcement officials
involved in awarding Comverse government contracts over the years now work for the company.

Numerous sources say some of those individuals were asked to leave government service under what knowledgeable sources call "troublesome
circumstances" that remain under administrative review within the Justice Department.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

And what troubles investigators most, particularly in New York, in the counter terrorism investigation of the World Trade Center attack, is that on a
number of cases, suspects that they had sought to wiretap and survey immediately changed their telecommunications processes. They started acting
much differently as soon as those supposedly secret wiretaps went into place P Brit.

HUME: Carl, is there any reason to suspect in this instance that the Israeli government is involved?

CAMERON: No, there's not. But there are growing instincts in an awful lot of law enforcement officials in a variety of agencies who suspect that it
had begun compiling evidence, and a highly classified investigation into that possibility P Brit.

HUME: All right, Carl. Thanks very much.

Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-50, 51-74 next last

Enjoy.

1 posted on 12/14/01 9:22 AM Pacific by Plummz
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To: Plummz

There must be a reason why 60+ Israelis got swept recently up by the FBI.

Where there is smoke...

2 posted on 12/14/01 9:27 AM Pacific by Agent Smith
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To: Agent Smith

... there's fire.

3 posted on 12/14/01 9:28 AM Pacific by aspide
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To: aspide

Are the first two parts posted???

4 posted on 12/14/01 9:34 AM Pacific by Lael
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To: Plummz

A handful of former U.S. law enforcement officials involved in awarding Comverse government contracts over the years now work for the company.

How convenient!

Numerous sources say some of those individuals were asked to leave government service under what knowledgeable sources call "troublesome
circumstances" that remain under administrative review within the Justice Department.

Wow!!!...how `bout naming some names?

Did Ole King Squirt outsource our intelligence gathering to the Mossad?

And BTW....The Queen sure looked like she had a 9-11 heads up!

5 posted on 12/14/01 9:38 AM Pacific by wheezer
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To: Lael

yes. type in cameron in the Freeper search box at the top of the page.

6 posted on 12/14/01 9:40 AM Pacific by SGCOS
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To: *TerrOrWar; aristeides; Fred Mertz; Wallaby; OKCSubmariner; Boyd; Uncle Bill; thinden; Black Jade

ping

7 posted on 12/14/01 9:46 AM Pacific by Plummz
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To: Cachelot

Here is the backdoor thingy I was jabbering about yesterday.

8 posted on 12/14/01 9:50 AM Pacific by ScreamingFist
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To: Plummz; Landru

BUMP!!!!!!!!

9 posted on 12/14/01 9:56 AM Pacific by Donald Stone
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Sounds like a cozy subcontracting arrangement that allows the FBI to monitor those it can't by law, by letting the Israeli's do it, and then the pertinent
info is kicked back to the FBI. Or am I missing something? Started in 1994, fits with the modus operandi of the Arkansas Mafia, easy way to get a
heads up on GOP strategy, or to look for drunk driving arrest records in Maine(not that it wasn't in the FBI files, but you get my point).

10 posted on 12/14/01 9:58 AM Pacific by Diddle E. Squat
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To: wheezer

From http://www.ciao.gov/PCCIP/Bios/1CommissionerBiographies.htm

CHAIRMAN

Robert T. Marsh

Chairman, President's Commission on Critical Infrastructure Protection

Mr. Marsh is an aerospace consultant and currently serves as the chairman of the board of CAE Electronics, Incorporated, and Comverse
Government Systems Corporation. He is a director of Teknowledge Corporation and a trustee of the MITRE Corporation. He is also the director
of the Air Force Aid Society. From 1989-1991, he served as the first chairman of Thiokol Corporation. Retired in 1984 as a general in the U.S. Air
Force, his last assignment was serving as the commander of the Air Force Systems Command where he directed the research, development, testing
and acquisition of aerospace systems for the Air Force.

11 posted on 12/14/01 9:59 AM Pacific by Plummz
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To: ScreamingFist

Here is the backdoor thingy I was jabbering about yesterday.

Oh. But there's nothing here to suggest any actual backdoor. The words used were "in effect, a backdoor". Now, a backdoor is a piece of software or
an opening put in place for a specific purpose. This article simply points out that here may be vulnerabilities in Comverse's implementation, which may
of course be true. It also seems that the vulnerability here may lie more in how the different agencies are granting access than in any design of the
software.

This is fairly telling:

HUME: Carl, is there any reason to suspect in this instance that the Israeli government is involved?

CAMERON: No, there's not. But there are growing instincts in an awful lot of law enforcement officials in a variety of agencies who
suspect that it had begun compiling evidence, and a highly classified investigation into that possibility P Brit.

Seems like run of the mill CYA posturing to me. After having run a ship so sloppy that anyone could get at the captain's strawberries. If you want a
good laugh (or maybe a cry) go and look up the results of a penetration test called "Eligible Receiver" a couple years back. I think a full three % of all
targets managed to keep their doors closed :).

12 posted on 12/14/01 10:11 AM Pacific by Cachelot
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To: Plummz

HUME: Last time we reported on an Israeli-based company called Amdocs Ltd. that generates the computerized records and billing data for nearly
every phone call made in America.

It seems to be a publicly traded company based in the US and UK with at least one officer with an Israeli name. Why does Brit say it is
"Israeli-based?"

13 posted on 12/14/01 10:12 AM Pacific by a_witness
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To: Diddle E. Squat

Sounds like a cozy subcontracting arrangement that allows the FBI to monitor those it can't by law, by letting the Israeli's do it, and then the pertinent
info is kicked back to the FBI. Or am I missing something?

I raised the same theory on another thread that was pulled. Let's just pretend, theoretically speaking that the US agencies must have no knowledge or
involvement about the source whatsoever and only trusted allies (Britain, Israel) should qualify.

Now counter that with some in the US agencies who have a different focus or agenda and things could get quite nasty.

14 posted on 12/14/01 10:17 AM Pacific by a_witness
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To: Plummz

BTTT to read later.

15 posted on 12/14/01 10:26 AM Pacific by TruthNtegrity
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To: a_witness

Why don't you ask him?

16 posted on 12/14/01 10:33 AM Pacific by Plummz
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To: a_witness

Also see this.

17 posted on 12/14/01 10:35 AM Pacific by Plummz
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To: Donald Stone; Elle Bee; rdavis84; mancini; Mudboy Slim

per #10:

"Started in 1994, fits with the modus operandi of the Arkansas Mafia, easy way to get a heads up on GOP strategy, or to look for drunk driving
arrest records in Maine(not that it wasn't in the FBI files, but you get my point)."

Not bad.
Tangible as hell; annnd would explain a lot in terms which begin to make some damned sense.
The source of & *infrastructure* to the avalanche of leaks which permitted the weasel to always squirt off everytime it'd appear he was going to
finally get nailed?

...never was any *mystery* here, whatsoever; only the shenanigans we could not see.

18 posted on 12/14/01 10:38 AM Pacific by Landru
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To: Cachelot

"It also seems that the vulnerability here may lie more in how the different agencies are granting access than in any design of the software."
Agree.

"After having run a ship so sloppy that anyone could get at the captain's strawberries."
Truer words were never spoken. I'm beginning to wonder if there is ANYTHING clintoon and the band of thieves didn't compromise.

19 posted on 12/14/01 10:43 AM Pacific by ScreamingFist
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To: Plummz

Why don't you ask him?

Paging Mr. Hume, Mr. Brit Hume.
Why do you say Amdocs Ltd is an Israeli-based company ?

20 posted on 12/14/01 10:55 AM Pacific by a_witness
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To: Agent Smith; Plummz; aspide

So far -- this story is basically, nothing much.

Notice the other news outlets are not picking it up at all.

Yes 60 Israelis were picked up. All but about 40 have gone back to Israel. A handful are 'involved' in 'this'.

The charge that Israel 'knew something' and withheld it has already been retracted by Foxnews.

This appears to be a plant by someone wants to raise the issue of this Israeli-based company and whether they have or could spy on the USA.

So far just rank speculation, and spin.

21 posted on 12/14/01 10:58 AM Pacific by veronica
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To: Plummz

Now that makes sense. Thanks for the link.

22 posted on 12/14/01 10:58 AM Pacific by a_witness
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To: a_witness

Could be because of this:

Amdocs, Ltd.--- CBA (Customer Behavior Analysis)

Application Name: Customer Behavior Analysis (CBA)

Market Segment: Telecommunications Industry

Oleg Volpin, Ph.D, R&D Project Manager
AMDOCS Israel Ltd. 8 Hapnina St. Ra'anana 4300, Israel
972-9-776-3991
972-9-776-3800
olegv@amdocs.com

AmDocs, Ltd. is the largest exporter of software in Israel, which is significant given the extent of that business there. Apparently this branch of the
multinational- which has an offshore registration- handles the U.S. Federal/Military contracts.

23 posted on 12/14/01 11:06 AM Pacific by Weisbrot
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To: veronica

The charge that Israel 'knew something' and withheld it has already been retracted by Foxnews.

Where and how did you verify this? Thanks.

24 posted on 12/14/01 11:10 AM Pacific by Weisbrot
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To: veronica

The charge that Israel 'knew something' and withheld it has already been retracted by Foxnews.

a) Cite where Fox said anything beyond that some US investigators were trying to determine whether or not Israel had more specific foreknowledge
than what was offered.

b) Cite the retraction.

25 posted on 12/14/01 11:28 AM Pacific by Plummz
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To: a_witness

http://www.thestreet.com/comment/cfeatures/1122825.html

TEL AVIV, Israel -- Israeli companies trading on U.S. exchanges are always striving to hide their blue-and-white markings. Every notice by Check
Point Software (CHKP:Nasdaq - news) or Comverse Technologies (CMVT:Nasdaq - news) would begin with some American city, where they had
located their U.S. headquarters. They almost never mentioned Israel. Their rationale was mainly that foreign companies in general, and Israeli ones in
particular, trade at a discount compared with comparable American counterparts...

Once an Israeli, always an Israeli, and even if Comverse plants itself in New Jersey or Amdocs registers itself in Guernsey Island, it's Israeli, tried
and true.

Jonathan Nassie writes for the Israeli-based TheMarker.com, a TSC partner.

26 posted on 12/14/01 11:32 AM Pacific by Weisbrot
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To: Plummz

Are all these stories/transcripts by Cameron posted on FR? Could someone link them all on one thread for easy access to all the info? Thanks in
advance.

27 posted on 12/14/01 11:35 AM Pacific by monkeyshine
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To: a_witness

Did you hack the FR reply function into the Fox-Washington PA system? Email might be easier.

28 posted on 12/14/01 11:35 AM Pacific by Plummz
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To: Plummz

From the transcript:

HUME: Carl, I want to take you back to your report last night on those 60 Israelis who were detained in the anti-terror investigation, and the
suspicion that some investigators have that they may have picked up information on the 9/11 attacks ahead of time and not
passed it on.

There was a report, you'll recall, that the Mossad, the Israeli intelligence agency, did indeed send representatives to the
U.S. to warn, just before 9/11, that a major terrorist attack was imminent. How does that leave room for the lack of a
warning?

CAMERON: I remember the report, Brit. We did it first internationally right here on your show on the 14th. What investigators are saying is that that
warning from the Mossad was nonspecific and general, and they believe that it may have had something to do with the desire to protect what are called
sources and methods in the intelligence community. The suspicion being, perhaps those sources and methods were taking place right here in the United
States. The question came up in select intelligence committee on Capitol Hill today. They intend to look into what we reported last night, and
specifically that possibility P Brit.

HUME: So in other words, the problem wasn't lack of a warning, the problem was lack of useful details?

CAMERON: Quantity of information.

HUME: All right, Carl, thank you very much.

Content and Programming Copyright 2001 Fox

Talk about rear-covering...

29 posted on 12/14/01 11:37 AM Pacific by veronica
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To: monkeyshine

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/588591/posts http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/590597/posts
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/590668/posts

30 posted on 12/14/01 11:41 AM Pacific by Weisbrot
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To: monkeyshine

oops... http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/588591/posts
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/590597/posts
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/590668/posts

31 posted on 12/14/01 11:41 AM Pacific by Weisbrot
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To: veronica

More of a semantic correction than a retraction. Fox News is still reporting that some US investigators suspect Israeli intelligence did not report the full
extent of what they knew about the attacks beforehand.

32 posted on 12/14/01 11:42 AM Pacific by Plummz
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To: veronica

Talk about rear-covering...

Sure sounds like it. It makes sense now. Mossad warned the CIA an attack was imminent but did not give any details. We know from Bin Laden's
tape that most of the cell members did not know the details either. This is real espionage and terror. The CIA downplayed or ignored the Israeli
warning or simply did not know what to do about it. The terrorists attacked us successfully and Congress wants to know why the CIA let us down.
They want to blame Mossad for not telling them more, but they don't know that Mossad knew more.

33 posted on 12/14/01 11:44 AM Pacific by a_witness
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To: Plummz

Did you hack the FR reply function into the Fox-Washington PA system? Email might be easier.

I don't want AMDOCS Ltd to know. Shhh, they might hear us.

34 posted on 12/14/01 11:46 AM Pacific by a_witness
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To: Plummz

That is an untruth.

Fox News is still reporting that some US investigators suspect Israeli intelligence MAY HAVE NOT reported the full extent of what they knew about
the attacks beforehand.

Again....more spin - more innuendo. More rear-covering??

35 posted on 12/14/01 11:49 AM Pacific by veronica
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To: Plummz

I can't hold the Mossad or Israel responsible for a U.S. intelligence failure. Our national security lies with us. But it does bother me a lot that our
military or security agencies contract out these kinds of services to a foreign nation, regardless of the nation. In fact, it makes me angry.

36 posted on 12/14/01 11:49 AM Pacific by dlt
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To: a_witness

Nah, AMDOCS just keeps track of who called who. It's Comverse what can listen in.

37 posted on 12/14/01 11:50 AM Pacific by Plummz
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To: veronica

"Suspect" is sufficient enough to establish the conditional nature of the investigators' belief. "Suspecting" someone "may" have done something is just
poor writing.

Hope this helps.

38 posted on 12/14/01 11:53 AM Pacific by Plummz
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To: a_witness

They want to blame Mossad for not telling them more, but they don't know that Mossad knew more.

Maybe, maybe not. It's worth investigating. The real issues are why an ally has an extensive spy network set up within the U.S. (particularly after the
exposure of Pollard and the mea culpas that followed), and what the intelligence community will do to rid itself and the U.S. of the breach in security.
If they dare.

39 posted on 12/14/01 11:54 AM Pacific by Weisbrot
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To: Weisbrot

Nor has Fox proved there an 'extensive spy network.' Not in this series, at any rate.

40 posted on 12/14/01 12:00 PM Pacific by veronica
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To: Plummz

CAMERON: No, there's not. But there are growing instincts in an awful lot of law enforcement officials in a variety of agencies who suspect that it
had begun compiling evidence, and a highly classified investigation into that possibility.

Sounds pretty significant to me. Thanks for the flag.

41 posted on 12/14/01 12:09 PM Pacific by Fred Mertz
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To: veronica

Nor has Fox proved there an 'extensive spy network.' Not in this series, at any rate.

Fox hasn't proven anything, yet.

I appreciate that you are taking an intellectual approach to this situation. Saying that, please keep in mind that an approach using reason might prove
more beneficial to understanding why this investigation is so vital. A use of the time-honored Western practice of reason based on observation- while
maintaining awareness that past incidents give a basis for suspicion- might assist your understanding. Please accept my apologies if you are not from a
Western culture, and cannot refer to a Western context.

Since, as you have said, you have seen all three reports you might remember the graphics presented by Cameron. Although not reflected in the
transcripts, these graphics illustrated that the investigation is being conducted in numerous areas across the country. In one instance, Cameron refers to
a suspected spy team apprehended in North Carolina which maintained an apartment for its operations in Southern California.

If not extensive, then, perhaps, bi-coastal.

Hope this clears things up for you somewhat.

42 posted on 12/14/01 12:37 PM Pacific by Weisbrot
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To: Weisbrot

Please accept my apologies if you are not from a Western culture, and cannot refer to a Western context.

I was born in Rhode Island and live in California.

Not Western enough for you? LOL...

43 posted on 12/14/01 12:41 PM Pacific by veronica
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To: Plummz

> For Immediate Release:
> Contact:
> December 13, 2001
> Steve Lilienthal
>
> 202-204-5304
>
> slilienthal@freecongress.org
>
> Dean Reaction To Fox News Report On
> CALEA
>
> Free Congress Foundation's Lisa S. Dean offered this reaction to the
> report delivered on Fox News tonight that said local law enforcement
> agents delivered a letter to the FBI stating that the wiretap technical
> standards are lower and less secure now under the Communications
> Assistance for Law Enforcement Act (CALEA) than they had been. Dean said:
>
> "We are exercising our `I told you so rights' on this," said Dean, Vice
> President for Technology Policy. "From the beginning, both the political
> Right and Left warned Congress and the FBI that they were making a huge
> mistake by implementing CALEA. That it would jeopardize the security of
> private communications, whether it's between a mother and her son or
> between government officials. The statement just issued by law enforcement
> agencies has confirmed our worst fears."
>
> - 30 -

44 posted on 12/14/01 12:43 PM Pacific by Plummz
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To: Weisbrot

Also worth asking, beyond who working for the Israeli government might have known this was coming, is who working for the American
government might have known this was coming.

45 posted on 12/14/01 12:45 PM Pacific by Plummz
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To: Weisbrot

A use of the time-honored Western practice of reason based on observation- while maintaining awareness that past incidents give a basis for
suspicion- might assist your understanding.

You go with 'guilt by association' or innuendo. I will stick with proven facts. That's the American way, after all. Time will tell if there is anything to
this.

46 posted on 12/14/01 12:47 PM Pacific by veronica
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To: Weisbrot

Thanks

47 posted on 12/14/01 1:21 PM Pacific by monkeyshine
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To: veronica

You go with 'guilt by association' or innuendo. I will stick with proven facts. That's the American way, after all. Time will tell if there is anything to
this.

I think you misunderstand. There is no guilt established to this point. My assertion is that- based on observation- there is a vital need for this
investigation to proceed, and to be supported by American citizenry, media, and government. That to me is the American way. From your posts here
and on other associated threads, I have gathered that you consider this investigation to be pointless. Please explain how anyone supporting this
investigation has shown they prefer to rely on innuendo, and how you have arrived at the conclusion that this investigation is without merit.

48 posted on 12/14/01 1:36 PM Pacific by Weisbrot
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To: Weisbrot

Maybe, maybe not. It's worth investigating. The real issues are why an ally has an extensive spy network set up within the U.S. (particularly after
the exposure of Pollard and the mea culpas that followed), and what the intelligence community will do to rid itself and the U.S. of the breach in
security. If they dare.

What is difficult to understand? Every country spys. In the case of Israel there was an actual security issue involved since all of the PA terroist
networks were 100% financed by domestic supporters in the US. Have you forgotten that the Hammas bombers had until recently all of their bagmen
here on our soil. I think the real question is why our own FBI, CIA, and State Department were so oblivious to the terror networks operating in our
country. It was the same incompetence (or maybe something much more insiduous) that led to the murder of over 3000 of our people. I am more
suspicious of this being a cover-up for the failure of our own security operations. How many in the CIA, FBI, and State Department have been fired
over their failure to prevent the worst terrorist act in US history? How many holdovers from the Clintionistas still infect our government? Have you
forgotten that over a 180 departmental and judicial nominations from the Bush White House have been held up by the rats? Just something to think
about.

49 posted on 12/14/01 1:48 PM Pacific by PA Engineer
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To: veronica

Israel has a very extensive intelligence network inside the United States, and some of its agents have been caught working inside the US Government
acquiring secrets, as well as monitoring the activities of cells of Muslim terrorist organizations active inside the United States. The network is so
extensive that it should be considered a threat to the security of the United States, despite any legitimate reasons the Israeli government may have for
deploying such illegal agents inside the United States. Any foreign intelligence network of the size and scope of Israel's inside this country should
attract a great deal of counterintelligence attention.

50 posted on 12/14/01 1:53 PM Pacific by roughrider
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Part 4: Carl Cameron Investigates

Foreign Affairs
Source: FoxHews
Published: Monday, December 17, 200 Author: Carl Cameron
Posted on 12/17/01 5:52 PM Pacific by Phil V.

Part 4: Carl Cameron Investigates

FNC
Carl Cameron
Monday, December 17, 2001

Part 4 of 4

TONY SNOW, HOST: This week, senior correspondent Carl Cameron has reported on a
longstanding government espionage investigation. Federal officials this year have arrested
or detained nearly 200 Israeli citizens suspected of belonging to an "organized
intelligence-gathering operation." The Bush administration has deported most of those
arrested after Sept. 11, although some are in custody under the new anti-terrorism law.

Cameron also investigates the possibility that an Israeli firm generated billing data that
could be used for intelligence purpose, and describes concerns that the federal
government's own wiretapping system may be vulnerable. Tonight, in part four of the
series, we'll learn about the probable roots of the probe: a drug case that went bad four
years ago in L.A.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CARL CAMERON, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Los Angeles,
1997, a major local, state and federal drug investigating sours. The suspects: Israeli
organized crime with operations in New York, Miami, Las Vegas, Canada, Israel and
Egypt. The allegations: cocaine and ecstasy trafficking, and sophisticated white-collar
credit card and computer fraud.

The problem: according to classified law enforcement documents obtained by Fox News,
the bad guys had the copsU beepers, cell phones, even home phones under surveillance.
Some who did get caught admitted to having hundreds of numbers and using them to
avoid arrest.

"This compromised law enforcement communications between LAPD detectives and other
assigned law enforcement officers working various aspects of the case. The organization
discovered communications between organized crime intelligence division detectives, the
FBI and the Secret Service."

Shock spread from the DEA to the FBI in Washington, and then the CIA. An
investigation of the problem, according to law enforcement documents, concluded, "The
organization has apparent extensive access to database systems to identify pertinent
personal and biographical information."

When investigators tried to find out where the information might have come from, they
looked at Amdocs, a publicly traded firm based in Israel. Amdocs generates billing data
for virtually every call in America, and they do credit checks. The company denies any
leaks, but investigators still fear that the firm's data is getting into the wrong hands.

When investigators checked their own wiretapping system for leaks, they grew concerned
about potential vulnerabilities in the computers that intercept, record and store the
wiretapped calls. A main contractor is Comverse Infosys, which works closely with the
Israeli government, and under a special grant program, is reimbursed for up to 50 percent
of its research and development costs by Israel's Ministry of Industry and Trade.

Asked this week about another sprawling investigation and the detention of 60 Israeli
since Sept. 11, the Bush administration treated the questions like hot potatoes.

ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I would just refer you to the
Department of Justice with that. I'm not familiar with the report.

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: I'm aware that some Israeli citizens have
been detained. With respect to why they're being detained and the other aspects of your
question P whether it's because they're in intelligence services, or what they were doing P
I will defer to the Department of Justice and the FBI to answer that.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CAMERON: Beyond the 60 apprehended or detained, and many deported since Sept. 11,
another group of 140 Israeli individuals have been arrested and detained in this year in
what government documents describe as "an organized intelligence gathering operation,"
designed to "penetrate government facilities." Most of those individuals said they had
served in the Israeli military, which is compulsory there.

But they also had, most of them, intelligence expertise, and either worked for Amdocs or
other companies in Israel that specialize in wiretapping. Earlier this week, the Israeli
embassy in Washington denied any spying against or in the United States P Tony.

SNOW: Carl, we've heard the comments from Ari Fleischer and Colin Powell. What are
officials saying behind the scenes?

CAMERON: Well, there's real pandemonium described at the FBI, the DEA and the
INS. A lot of these problems have been well known to some investigators, many of who
have contributed to the reporting on this story. And what they say is happening is
supervisors and management are now going back and collecting much of the information,
because there's tremendous pressure from the top levels of all of those agencies to find
out exactly what's going on.

At the DEA and the FBI already a variety of administration reviews are under way, in
addition to the investigation of the phenomenon. They want to find out how it is all this
has come out, as well as be very careful because of the explosive nature and very political
ramifications of the story itself P Tony.

SNOW: All right, Carl, thanks.

Part I

Part II

Part III

1 posted on 12/17/01 5:52 PM Pacific by Phil V.
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To: dennisw; ObjetD'art; Nachum; Galloway; Michael2001; The Documentary Lady; jmp702; malarski...

FYI

2 posted on 12/17/01 5:54 PM Pacific by Phil V.
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To: Phil V.

Did you see this?!

3 posted on 12/17/01 5:57 PM Pacific by JMJ333
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To: JMJ333

Friends don't watch other friends pee in the urinal...

4 posted on 12/17/01 6:03 PM Pacific by WriteOn
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To: WriteOn

Well...since I'm a woman I don't watch anyone pee in a urinal. Maybe you could try another analogy.

5 posted on 12/17/01 6:08 PM Pacific by JMJ333
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To: JMJ333

Well...since I'm a woman I don't watch anyone pee in a urinal. Maybe you could try another analogy.***

Thanks. I needed a good laugh at this point.

6 posted on 12/17/01 6:16 PM Pacific by The Documentary Lady
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To: Phil V.

Carl Cameron is one of the best...I look forward to hearing more and love watching him on TV. He isn't on as much as he used to be and I hope he
never leaves FNC

7 posted on 12/17/01 6:36 PM Pacific by Faithfull
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To: Faithfull

bump

8 posted on 12/17/01 6:45 PM Pacific by The Documentary Lady
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To: Phil V.

According to They Dare to Speak Out, our people were afraid to write things down for fear that the Israelis would find out and use it to their
advantage, which they were doing. That had to impede the way our people wanted to do business.

Why would you want beepers and home numbers for the police? Blackmail? The Israelis are known for that too.

9 posted on 12/17/01 7:29 PM Pacific by The Documentary Lady
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To: Phil V.

Also here and here.

In advance of the hive:

1. No, this has not been debunked. If you claim it has, please list cite the quote where FOX disclaimed their report.

2. Yes, both telecommunications firms listed in the reports are Israeli. They use offshore listings and multiple offices to obscure their ownerships and
entanglements, but have been established to be Israeli in other threads.

3. Yes, Jonathan Pollard is relevant. So is the Liberty. Stating otherwise is sheer misdirection.

10 posted on 12/17/01 8:11 PM Pacific by Weisbrot
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To: Weisbrot

1. No, this has not been debunked. If you claim it has, please list cite the quote where FOX disclaimed their report.***

Whoah. A direct shot over Veronica's bow.

11 posted on 12/17/01 8:22 PM Pacific by The Documentary Lady
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To: The Documentary Lady

Whoah. A direct shot over Veronica's bow.

No. The hive rarely responds to truth. Please note the complete lack of documentation by the hive in the linked threads, and the evacuation that occurs
immediately upon any credible challenge. Once the ad hominem and hyperbole is in place, the hive moves on to another swarming zone.

12 posted on 12/17/01 8:45 PM Pacific by Weisbrot
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To: Weisbrot

Yes, Jonathan Pollard is relevant. So is the Liberty. Stating otherwise is sheer misdirection. Suppose I tell you that fruit flies are relevant too.

The onus is on you to show the relevance when YOU claim it.

13 posted on 12/17/01 8:49 PM Pacific by TopQuark
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To: The Documentary Lady

Also posted here. I woulf like to repeat the same question here,
The suspects: Israeli organized crime with operations in New York, Miami, Las Vegas, Canada, Israel and Egypt. The allegations: cocaine and
ecstasy trafficking, and sophisticated white-collar credit card and computer fraud. What is the connection here with spying? Am I missing
something? Could someone please explain?

14 posted on 12/17/01 8:54 PM Pacific by TopQuark
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To: TopQuark

Suppose I tell you that fruit flies are relevant too.
The onus is on you to show the relevance when YOU claim it.

Swat.

Carl Cameron has reported on a longstanding government espionage investigation. Federal officials this year have arrested
or detained nearly 200 Israeli citizens suspected of belonging to an "organized intelligence-gathering operation."

Pollard's defenders claim he, like French Capt. Alfred Dreyfus in 1894, is a victim of anti-Semitism in the military. They maintain Pollard was "only"
spying for a friendly country, motivated solely by concern for Israel's security. These assertions are patently false. Pollard was suspected for some
time of spying. Investigation was held off precisely because of fears of raising cries of anti-Semitism. Pollard took large sums of money and jewelry
from Israeli agents in payment for spying.

With remarkable chutzpah, Israel, which receives up to $5 billion in U.S. aid annually, refuses to return documents stolen by Pollard, or allow U.S.
intelligence to debrief Mossad agents who ran Pollard in order to learn the full extent of the disaster. While Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu kept calling
for Pollard's release on "humanitarian" grounds, he refused to free prisoner of conscience Mordechai Vanunu, now serving 18 years in solitary
confinement in Israel for telling a British newspaper about Israel's nuclear arsenal.

Pollard is no Jewish patriot. He is a traitor who sold out his country, and fellow intelligence officers, for money, then claimed he was being persecuted
by anti-Semites.

Victim he is not. To the contrary, Pollard is a poster boy for anti-Semitism. His treason unfairly exposes all American Jews to hate, and accusations of
doubtful loyalty.

Jonathan Pollard is a traitor of the worst kind - not a second Dreyfus - and should stay in prison.

15 posted on 12/17/01 10:54 PM Pacific by Weisbrot
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To: Weisbrot

The onus is on you to show the relevance when YOU claim it. Relevance does not follow from your previous post either.

You have recited the facts on the Dreyfus case and the Pollard case. Neither Fox nor I brought up Dreyfus. Expanding the scope hurts, if anything, in
showing relevance.

Nor does Fox bring the Pollard case into the issue. And rightfully so: it is for the courts to compare cases to ensure the proportionality of punishment,
etc. Each case has to be addressed on its own merit, however.

Next, you quote Fox,

Carl Cameron has reported on a longstanding government espionage investigation. Federal officials this year have arrested or detained
nearly 200 Israeli citizens suspected of belonging to an "organized intelligence-gathering operation."

Yes indeed, this is the STATED overall objective of the report. You will notice, however, that Part IV deals exclusively with organized crime. Just like
you, they committed the association mistake: you group together all cases related to Israel and/or Jews (it is for you to explain to yourself why), and
they put together organized crime together with spying --- contrary to their own stated objective.

In my view, this is sloppy reporting. Given that the 1997-8 case is old, I would rather hear how it ended. I would like to know that, unless that was a
mistake or political move, at least some of the perpetrators are in prison. Yet, Fox provides not even a comment from the FBI or DOJ. They quote
unnamed sources but there is one thing that they could tell us publicly --- about the Israeli companies involved --- yet they do not do that either.

That is besides the point, however. Both Pollard and Dreyfus are irrelevant. To bring Liberty into this is really a pathetic insult to intelligence --- unless
your point is not this article but something else, of course.

16 posted on 12/18/01 2:26 AM Pacific by TopQuark
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To: Phil V.;The Documentary Lady;veronica

Try this:... THIS STORY NO LONGER AVAILABLE By Carl Cameron Friday, December 21, 2001>

Can someone explain to me why this story apparently must have REAL LEGS if the powerful are willing to risk exposure of censorship? This in light
of Israel dismisses report it didn't share WTC attack data

17 posted on 12/21/01 3:03 PM Pacific by YoursIn Liberty
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To: YoursIn Liberty, weisbrot

Oh gee, Fox pulled the story.

More fodder for the tinfoil hat crowd. The conspiracy behind the conspiracy behind the conspiracy! Gives me the shivers just to think about it. LOL....

18 posted on 12/21/01 6:49 PM Pacific by veronica
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To: JMJ333

Did you see this?!

hmmmm, I saw it...but, didja see this!? ;)

Enduring Freedom Picture Cards

19 posted on 12/22/01 4:40 AM Pacific by Mong
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To: TopQuark

If we had any balls left, we would throw the Amen Corner dual-loyalist scum right out of our country.

20 posted on 12/22/01 8:30 AM Pacific by AmericaFirster
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To: veronica

Oh gee, Fox pulled the story. ...Gives me the shivers just to think about it. LOL....

So, veronica, you approve of censorship? ... I would, frankly, not have expected that from you. ... The Communists and NAZI's (National
Socialists) were good at it -- and the INAZI's (International Socialists) are getting better at it. ... Sorry, Freedom of Speech is an important value for
me in America..... Sounds like it isn't for you - or am I missing something?

21 posted on 12/22/01 12:41 PM Pacific by YoursIn Liberty
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To: AmericaFirster

...and FOX has the nerve to say that it is "fair and balanced." Bah humbug. Don't forget that its owner Rupert Murdoch is a Zionist Jew and the news
is presented with a pro-Israel stance. It is the network par excellence for the neo-cons

Let's see if Bill O'Reilly will tolerate this censorship in his "no spin zone." Or whether his knees will buckle, as I believe they will.

22 posted on 12/22/01 12:57 PM Pacific by lukpok
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To: WriteOn

"Friends don't watch other friends pee in the urinal..."

The Man once said:"Trust but verify."

23 posted on 12/22/01 1:07 PM Pacific by verity
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To: AmericaFirster

If we had any balls left, we would throw the Amen Corner dual-loyalist scum right out of our country. Since when has it become normal to use
vulgarities such as this?

No wonder, you speak with a wrong organ. Try to use your head and learn English.

24 posted on 12/22/01 2:23 PM Pacific by TopQuark
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To: Mong

Thanks! And welcome to FR!

25 posted on 12/22/01 5:15 PM Pacific by JMJ333
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To: veronica

More fodder for the tinfoil hat crowd.

Consider that others have concerns too. You do appear to gloat at times - consistent with being cast into "Israel's Amen Corner" by Justin Raimondo.

"Israel's amen corner in the US is vocal, well-organized, and not averse to censorship when it advances their agenda, and so outside pressure on Fox
News to pull the series cannot be ruled out. As disturbing as it is to contemplate, it seems that censorship is indeed a strong possibility in this case P
that is, Fox News is engaging in self-censorship, for reasons of its own." See ... Now You See It, Now You Don't

And now I find out from that same link that Rupert Murdoch is a Zionist (really?) and the following:... "I want everyone to read "veronica"'s gloating
reply above, and take into account what it means: she is happy that the threat of a lawsuit (or worse) intimidated Fox News from reporting the truth
about Israeli spying in the US. Veronica, you make Johnny Walker look like Patrick Henry." ....20 posted on 12/22/01 7:16 AM Pacific by Justin
Raimondo

For those interested - the above link also alleges to preserve the self-censored Fox News postings.

26 posted on 12/22/01 5:39 PM Pacific by YoursIn Liberty
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To: Phil V.

Well, there's real pandemonium described at the FBI, the DEA and the INS. A lot of these problems have been well known to some investigators,
many of who have contributed to the reporting on this story. And what they say is happening is supervisors and management are now going back and
collecting much of the information, because there's tremendous pressure from the top levels of all of those agencies to find out exactly what's going
on.

In other words this is a rogue operation by US agents to leak a classified investigation to FoxNews. They went around their superiors and broke the
law by revealing Top Secret documents to FoxNews during time of war. Some heads should roll and careers end over this. I'm certain if there was any
espionage against the United States President Bush and AG Ashcroft would give credence to these accusations.

I saw a photo of the five young Israelis deported who are suing the JD. They looked like young hippies. I really doubt the Israeli military, Mossad, or
any other Israeli government entity would be stupid enough to commit espionage on the United States. The risk is too high and the need is nonexistent.
I think the drug/organized crime angle has merit though. Organized crime has the need and doesn't care about the risk.

27 posted on 12/22/01 5:50 PM Pacific by a_witness
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To: lukpok

Don't forget that its owner Rupert Murdoch is a Zionist Jew and the news is presented with a pro-Israel stance.

Rupert Murdoch is Catholic.

28 posted on 12/22/01 5:56 PM Pacific by montag813
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To: montag813

No, you are wrong. He is a Zionist Jew.

29 posted on 12/22/01 6:10 PM Pacific by lukpok
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To: veronica

veronica, seems as if you've been annointed head of the "hive". Seems to fit, eh, "moderator"?

30 posted on 12/22/01 6:22 PM Pacific by bribriagain
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To: Weisbrot

So is the Liberty.

How is it relevant? Nobody has made the connection.

31 posted on 12/22/01 6:29 PM Pacific by monkeyshine
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To: lukpok

Murdoch is a Zionist Jew? Last I heard he was an Australian-American with Scottish ancestry.

32 posted on 12/22/01 6:30 PM Pacific by monkeyshine
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To: lukpok

http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0695/9506037.htm

"...Murdoch is neither Jewish nor a former employee of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC)... "

33 posted on 12/22/01 6:34 PM Pacific by monkeyshine
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To: AmericaFirster

Any other parts of the Constitution you want to trash?

34 posted on 12/22/01 6:37 PM Pacific by monkeyshine
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To: AmericaFirster

Is there any particular reason why you registered 2 months ago but didn't start posting until today?

35 posted on 12/22/01 6:51 PM Pacific by monkeyshine
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To: a_witness

I really doubt the Israeli military, Mossad, or any other Israeli government entity would be stupid enough to commit espionage on
the United States. The risk is too high and the need is nonexistent. I think the drug/organized crime angle has merit though.
Organized crime has the need and doesn't care about the risk.

Is it assumed the Mossad is so righteous, that they -- or at least some elements therein -- wouldn't be involved in drug sales as a fund raising activity
(for "black ops" and/or simply as part of their retirement plan?)? Is the CIA the only gang who has allegedly profitted, and/or is profitting from the
grossly inflated illicit-intoxicant prices that the unjust "war on some drugs" has wrought? And, it's only speculation of course, but, who knows,
maybe they even cooperate on some joint ventures if/when they aren't competing?

From what I understand, L.A. is a big market...

Here is an excerpt from Newsmax, as food for thought:

U.S. Police and Intelligence Hit by Spy Network:
"The penetration of Comverse reportedly allowed criminals to wiretap law enforcement communications in reverse and foil
authorized wiretaps with advance warning. One major drug bust operation planned by the Los Angeles police was foiled by what
now appear to be reverse wiretaps placed on law enforcement phones by the criminal spy ring."

36 posted on 12/22/01 6:54 PM Pacific by Mong
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To: JMJ333

You're welcome. And, thanks for the welcome :)

37 posted on 12/22/01 6:58 PM Pacific by Mong
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To: Mong

But why mossad? It's possible, but could also just be some Israeli drug dealers with an insider in the DEA or LAPD or even Comverse. It doesn't
necessarily have to be mossad just because it's Israeli.

38 posted on 12/22/01 6:59 PM Pacific by monkeyshine
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To: monkeyshine

hi monkeyshine. Yeah, it's definitely a "why" and/or "why not" sorta thang, hey?

It's a chaotic world out there. It's hard to discern with any precision exactly what's "going on" along any particular line of inquiry when working with
limited info, as well as *too much info*. Besides "the facts", *too much info* also includes all the conflicting reports, misinformation,
disinformation, etc...

Regardless, if one uses their imagination, it's not all that difficult to come up with reasons why some organs of the Israeli gov't might be involved with
espionage, though. That doesn't make these players "evil", or even an enemy neccessarily... just acting in their own self-interest. Of course, if they get
there hands something, such as important technical info, and they sell it/trade it to another gov't, the U.S. gov't has a right to be pissed off about it.
The public ordinarily might not hear about it though, unless a U.S. politician finds out because of a leak, and decides to use the info to try and make
partisan hay...that is to say, make a political opponent and/or opposition party look bad in the blame game. This doesn't seem to be the season for that
sorta thing though (remember the timing of the "Cox Report"?), but who knows.

There is always that possibility that the "powers-that-be" leaked the story (whether or not it's factual, partially factual/manufactored, etc.) to Fox as an
attempt to "encourage" Israel to follow a certain path. For example, perhaps the current "powers-that-be" are angry about the way the "peace-process"
in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict if going, and this story was a leverage mechanism?

Who knows ...Lots of possibilities, surrounding this Cameron/Fox media event, for those with too much time on their hands (like oh me oh moi),
who like to ponder such things.

39 posted on 12/23/01 5:34 AM Pacific by Mong
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To: Mong

Does the United States have unsavory elements that comprise Organized Crime ? So does Israel. Mossad or the CIA would have to be extremely
stupid to engage in this activity in each other's country. I doubt either are that stupid. Stupid nations perish.

40 posted on 12/23/01 6:21 AM Pacific by a_witness
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To: a_witness

Sometimes the lines between "organized crime" and "organized gov't" have a tendency to blur. And/or they "interact" in ways that aren't always
adversarial.

I'd suggest the notion of perpetual allies, in this Orwellian age of rapidly shifting gov't alliances, is a comfortable myth for some.

Some would say that nations which don't keep tabs on each other, whether or not they are currently maintaining a face of friendly or semi-friendly
relations, are "stupid", and likely to perish.

41 posted on 12/23/01 7:16 AM Pacific by Mong
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To: Mong

Espionage, undoubtedly (in my mind). But the question is, is the mossad involved in this drug ring? Again, it's possible. Heck, the CIA has admitted
its involvement in cocaine distribution so it's not outside the realm of possibility. But it ain't necessarily so that the mossad is involved in X dealing in
the USA.

If you really wanted to get cynical, you could speculate that the mossad is working with the CIA and/or other agencies in the USA to run a protection
racket for drug pushers. It's all possible. But just because someone from Israel is involved in something nefarious, I don't automatically speculate that
the mossad or Israeli government is involved.

42 posted on 12/23/01 10:36 AM Pacific by monkeyshine
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To: Mong

There is always that possibility that the "powers-that-be" leaked the story (whether or not it's factual, partially factual/manufactored, etc.) to Fox as an
attempt to "encourage" Israel to follow a certain path.

Oh yeah, that is definitely possible. Or it's possible that Israel leaked the info to send the FBI on a wild goosechase. Or that the FBI intentionally
started an investigation for the publicity in an effort to placate Arab heads of state. Or that the mossad did in fact let the NSA or CIA know some info
that the FBI did not know, and the FBI caught wind of some of this info and started an investigation of their own. There are lot's of possibilities.
From the facts we have, I just can't jump to the conclusion that Justin Raimondo does. The info doesn't add up to his claim that "Israel knew and
withheld info about 9-11". It's a good start to investigate, but all we really know is some very obvious and cursory facts (i.e. Comverse, Amdocs,
their roles in telecom, and their ownership). It's like saying that because Greenspan is Jewish and a Jew owns a bank somewhere, that the Jews are
responsible for the.... ah nevermind. :-)

43 posted on 12/23/01 10:43 AM Pacific by monkeyshine
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To: Mong

The lyrics from a song from one of my favorite bands (janes addiction).

All the people that I know, they want to be left alone.
Other people I don't know won't leave you alone.
The biggest gang I know they call the government.
The gang is a weapon that you trade your mind in for.
Well I guess you gotta be, be just like them.
The gang, and the government are no different.
It makes me, 1%.

44 posted on 12/23/01 10:49 AM Pacific by monkeyshine
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To: JMJ333

Ugh, we're screwed.

45 posted on 12/23/01 12:35 PM Pacific by iNewt
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To: montag813

Rupert Murdoch is Catholic

No he's not. He's a proddy (Presbyterian I think).

46 posted on 12/23/01 12:53 PM Pacific by peabers
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To: a_witness

stupid nations perish

not necessarily, sometimes "it's location, location, location".

And, don't forget, "...chance happeneth to them all"

47 posted on 12/23/01 1:01 PM Pacific by iNewt
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